Done! Now restore this site to ESL ("English as a Second Language")

Question

Proposal: English Language Learners

A Brief Background — 6 months ago as part of the Area 51 process, this proposal was renamed from "English as a Second Language" to "English Language Learners." It was a way to highlight (and defend) the NEED to support a *separate* community for non-native speakers who were falling through the cracks of our English SE site. Congratulations, you've made it! and we are preparing this site for launch.

But before we do so, I implore you to restore the proper name of this site to

English as a Second Language (ESL.StackExchange.com)

Trying to describe the difference between "English Learners" and an "English Language & Usage" site will be difficult at best. If the dividing line become easy questions versus hard questions, the site will fail. On the other hand, when a native (or non-native) speaker sees "ESL" they'll know exactly where they need to be. The audiences are distinct; the line is clear.

This is not about semantics — yes, non-native speakers can fare just fine on EL&U — this is about the end-user experience and letting potential users know (clearly) where they need to be. For every user who stumbles into the wrong forum, it is easy to become confused, and everyone is unhappy.

Let's make this change now so we don't have to spend countless hours telling users they're in the wrong place. It's a wasted effort that will only only drive users away.

Answer 1

I understand what you are saying, but "English as a Second Language" is non-preferred lingo in educational circles. English Language Learners is the accepted, current terminology for the intended audience. Renaming the site "ESL" will label it as amateur to professionals.

Alternatively, English for Speakers of Other Languages is also occasionally used.

For instance, from the NYC A Guide for Educators of English Language Learners:

ELLs are students who speak a language other than English at home, and testing indicates these students have some limitations in their English language abilities, whether it is speaking, listening, reading, writing, or a combination of two or more. Other terms oftentimes used interchangeably with ELLs are Limited English Proficient (LEP) and English as a Second Language (ESL) student. ELL is the preferred term in most of the literature because of the negative connotation seen in LEP and the fact that ESL more accurately expresses a type of program that ELLs can be placed in.

I think that ESL does not accurately describe the audience we are seeking. I feel pretty strongly that the site should stay as "English Language Learners", but I also recognize that I may be working in a discipline (literacy education) that has provided me with a robust set of blinders.

ELLs are the people, ESL is a subset of instruction. I think ELL encompasses the breadth of the audience we are seeking. We want questions from people learning English and people teaching English about the particulars of this process. ESL limits the range of questions that fit into the categories we've discussed as appropriate for the site.

We don't want this site to be EL&U's dumping ground. That is not its purpose. It is not for questions about the study of English, but for questions about learning and teaching English. ELL is more suited for attracting professionals in the field. We will have plenty of amateur users no matter what we name it, but without some pros in the mix, the site might as well be named Yahoo Answers.

Answer 2

It is not yet evident to me that the community has determined that questions are sought only from non-native speakers. Consider the discussions here:

Why limit the new group to ESL?
Drawing the lines between ELL and ELU
English for language users

This is not to say that the principal patrons of this site will not be non-native speakers; but why should we deliberately select a name which will categorically exclude native speakers?

It’s not as if your average US high-school student doesn’t need help, or your average college student — or, for that matter, my average client, who is a thirty- or forty-something with an MBA. They’re all in need of friendly, intelligible, authoritative guidance.

To be sure, these are actually “ESL” students, too. They’re struggling with a Standard English which is fundamentally foreign to the regional or sociological or professional dialects they speak more or less fluently and write — let’s say adequately. But they don’t know that; they never will know that, unless they come here and we tell them; and if we name the site ESL or EFL or EOL or ESOL or EIL or E2L they won’t come. That’s bad marketing.

I say hang on ELL for the time being; this question is premature until we can address your own admirable Seven Essential Questions as a comprehensive whole, not atomic rushes-to-judgment.

Answer 3

One thing I don't like about this proposed English as a Second Language name change is that many people I've run across aren't speaking English as a second language. They may speak it as a third language, or a fourth language, but not as a second language.

I had a friend in college who told me (quite seriously) that English was her fourth language. Lebanese was her native tongue, and she was more fluent in French and Spanish than in English. Naming a site as though every non-native considers English as their second language seems potentially presumptuous, especially considering this site's global audience.

Answer 4

If we are considering how the names of the two sites are confusing, we should be giving equal consideration to the name of EL&U and how it contributes to the confusion. I doubt I can contribute a good name idea. To illustrate the approach I have in mind, though: after reviewing the list of SE sites, I suggest it be renamed “English Language Science” to reflect its focus on the scientific study of the English language by professionals and enthusiastic amateurs. This would still leave it wide open to basic questions along more academic lines, and simultaneously clarify the difference between it and “English Language Learners” focusing more on the practical issues facing language learners.

Answer 5

I hope I have finally read all discussions on this matter.

First, I agree that English Language Learners sounds much safer than English as a Second Language.

Second, this discussion, unless solved effectively at once, will stay forever. People will raise questions on Meta, argue, waste their time, and finally distract each other from using the site.

Third, the main goal is how to avoid becoming ELU's trash can. @Robert Cartaino is absolutely right: the complexity of the questions is a very bad borderline. However, as @StoneyB noticed, declaring "Second Language" is also problematic.

International English

This is the answer. It will be a two-fold definition, clearly saying the site will be about English as used in two contexts:

1. International usage context - the site will be about English the way it is used by native and non-native speakers;
2. International membership context - the site is adapted for the users who are not native speakers, who may struggle at the different level of language proficiency.

Also, there will be a clear distinction between International and Standard English which is the subject of EL&U.

There's a synonym, Global English, but personally I don't like it that much.

The Wikipedia article has more detailed insight.

Also, I would love the term of Simple English, but it has been usurped by a proprietary subset for special needs. If the moderators/FAQs can argue enough to distantiate it from the proprietary contexts, that would be the best name.